Joerger's future with the Kings

Discussion in 'Kings Rap' started by VF21, Jan 4, 2018.


Should the Kings retain Joerger?

  1. YES!

  2. NO!

  1. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    You do have a metric though because you expect specific things out of a rebuilding team especially if there are disappointing or damaging results. Also when has Pop ever had a team in the midst of a deep rebuild such as this? And specifically turning the kids loose if they are obviously the prime talent at that spot has never been an issue for Pop. Tony Parker jumped right into playing nearly 30 mpg as a starter at age 19. He easily dealt our very own George Hill for Kawhi Leonard and by year two he started nearly every game he played. I would bet that if he were in the same position with the Kings roster we would not be seeing this rotation pattern or type of on court play.
  2. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    Btw, I wish we had less than emphatic options in this poll.

    I voted "YES!" but I feel more of a "eh, yeah sure, I guess".
  3. Iced Espresso

    Iced Espresso Well-Known Member


    Very surprised by the poll results as well.

    I guess some voices are louder but less in number that I thought.
  4. jcassio

    jcassio Well-Known Member

    Right. It's a cluster of posters who just keep posting, posting and re-posting their dislike of Joerger. If you're not paying attention, it's easy to believe that there is a substantial number of them. But there isn't. Then there are others, like myself, who complain about Joerger on occasion, but don't usually call for his head. And then there are those who trust (completely) in Joerger (or Joerger and Vlade) and dislike any criticism whatsoever. What's interesting is when someone changes their stripes and moves to a different group.

    It's also interesting that back in the King's glory days, there was a small number of Kings fans that were extremely vocal about their dislike for Adelman, usually because of his "stupid" rotations. Seemed like there were more of them back then, too, but probably not.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  5. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Well, I guess I could have used lower case and no exclamation point. Geez...:p
    King Baller, Larry David and gunks like this.
  6. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    The results are even more pronounced than it appears. At least two voters selected "No" when they meant "yes." And no, I have no idea how that happened. That's one of the reasons I made the choices so short and to the point. ;)
    pdxKingsFan and Iced Espresso like this.
  7. kingdivac

    kingdivac Well-Known Member

    While Joerger's rotations are often baffling to me, the talent level of this Kings team is fairly low at this point. I don't think any coach could get this year's team to the playoffs. The front office decided to steer away from a Chicago Bulls type trial by fire with loading most the lineup with rookies. The Hill debacle is more bothersome than the coaching imo. However I would like to see Bogdan be the offensive focus for the team and have the most FGA.
  8. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    Sorry, I'm nit picking! ;)
    VF21 likes this.
  9. Sactown ExPat

    Sactown ExPat Active Member

    If Pop had this roster he’d be anticipating David Robinson coming back from injury (or being held out) and drafting Tim Duncan #1.

    This has been percolating for some time, but I think the mythology around Pop is really distorting the way NBA fans evaluate coaches today. What is constantly forgotten is how unbelievably great Tim Duncan was, and that he was the best #1 pick in the lottery era. Duncan flirted with free agency only one time, in a single visit to Orlando, and thereafter took less money to make room for other star players on the roster. He was arguably the second greatest captain of all time behind Bill Russell. And he also happened to be a top 10 player of all time and in the discussion for top 5. Pop is a great coach, but he and Buford built a perennial contender around Duncan. Tim is criminally underrated by the NBA cognescenti, which leads to this misguided idea that Pop somehow cobbled together a winner with a couple nice All-Stars and a bunch of spares. Therefore, any other good coach should be able to do the same. It’s just not so.

    This season has been tremendous for Pop, but even though they were missing their MVP candidate they still had three hall of famers (Gasol/Manu/Parker) and Aldridge. Plus Rudy Gay. I dare say Joerger would be winning games at a nice clip with that roster, too. We have a really good coach.
  10. ppine

    ppine Well-Known Member

    I misread the poll. How can I change my vote? I like the Coach just fine and he has a very difficult job.
  11. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    I was talking about if Pop took this team over as is. It's true he's yet to have to fully go on into a rebuild because they've always been very clever about turning over assets. They aren't true locked in #1 contenders anymore so we'll see where that leads them. He may end up trying to salvage a mediocre veteran team at all costs, but playing young guys if they were his best option hasn't been an issue for him in the past.

    Also, in regards to the bolded part I would add that the way the Spurs have built their teams has distorted the way both coaches and GM's see the game. I've said if before, they want to have their cake and eat it to. They want to field a winning team while developing young talent on the back burner. The issue is, just like we are seeing with the Kings, is that it's not something you can manufacture out of thin air. Certainly not by signing players of a marginal talent level or advanced age to overpriced contracts to lead they way while you split the minutes down the middle. The Spurs started off with a near contender as you alluded to and as I brought up above continuously turned over assets before they burned out. That's something the Kings haven't done even prior to Vlade and the pain is still being felt now as they appear to be headed down the same path after seemingly "getting it" at the end of last year. Vlade has cited Pop as a mentor so maybe that is a major reason things are being handled the way they are. I don't know. But I do know being Spurs light doesn't look to be working for the Kings right now.
  12. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    I agree, things are not good, but they could be worse. I still think the best option is for them as an organization is to pick a path and stick with it rather than butterfly whichever way the wind takes them and the most pressing issue is the rotation. If he wants to play the vets good, start making George Hill happy. If not, find a new location for him and a few others that can't deal with it.
    gunks likes this.
  13. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    I posted a link to an interview with Joerger....says that the group likes each other, practices with juice, they enjoy each other. If anyone has any reservations it's Hill but I think my take on Hill is that he's just not used to the losing and the rebuild.....having a hard time with it compared to his other stints.....well no poopoo George, losing is tough, getting blown out is way worse. Vince and Zbo are good with where they are at probably because of the stage of their career, Temple is just a hoss of a teammate...not sure about Kosta....please opt out after the year.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 6, 2018
  14. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    I thought that was what must have happened. You're not alone. Kingster did the same thing.

    Unfortunately, the software doesn't let anyone (not even all-powerful moderators) alter votes. Would who have thunk it? :p
  15. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    I don't doubt they like eachother and even like Joerger but we've heard VC bring up the lineups being an issue for his teammates in his post game comments, we've heard Willie make passing comments, and now George Hill has had open issues. Where there is smoke there is fire. Where there is poor play and players not jiving with their roles there will be as well.
  16. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Wow. I'm honestly stunned to see how you're twisting the narrative to meet your take. Where there is smoke there is fire? Where there is a YOUNG TEAM there are going to be issues, growing pains, and adjustments. You're making it sound as though both Carter and WCS are unhappy and I patently disagree. As far as Hill goes, I'm resigned to the fact he's just not a good fit for what the Kings want to do. Not our fault, not his fault. Just something that happens all the time in the NBA, just generally not with that big a price tag.

    The Kings are gonna be fine. I honestly believe that to the core of my being. I feel better about this young team than I've felt in a very long time.
  17. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    My take? It's what Vince said, did you listen his comments after the Cavs game? He specifically mentioned the lineups and the issues some of the players were having, not specifically him. It has nothing to do with my take the results so far speak for themselves.

    And you can be resigned to the fact that Hill isn't a good fit, I don't disagree, but clearly it's causing some sort of strain as evidenced by his own comments. I've already clearly stated my opinion as to what we are seeing and what will happen if it's allowed to continue based on historical correlation. They may buck the trend, but it's still unlikely if history has it's say.

    I also believe they'll be fine if those in charge allow them to grow and in turn create more opportunities for experience like the Denver game.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
    fansinceday1 likes this.
  18. Sactown ExPat

    Sactown ExPat Active Member

    Anybody with questions regarding the rotations really needs to listen to the latest Kings Insider podcast with James Hamm. He had Coach Gates on, and without dropping names, he described some of the issues with playing different BBIQ levels together. One guy consistantly missing his rotation (i.e. Skal) can impede the defensive development of the other young players.
  19. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    Yet the answer is to play ZBo. Not buying it. And Skal hasn't played and the Kings defense is still 30th in the league per defensive rating. Sorry, failure is failure so you might as well get something else out of it.
  20. Folsomkingsfan

    Folsomkingsfan Active Member

    I'm not sure I understand this. Granted I haven't listened to this, but is he suggesting that the reason that some of the young guys aren't getting consistent minutes, or minutes at all, is because of their low basketball IQ's? If so that seems like they are really doing a disservice to some of these kids. Either send them to Reno or let them work through their issues on the court. Skal isn't going to fix his defensive rotation problems by getting pulled as soon as he misses one and then not going back into the game.
  21. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    You don't buy anything that isn't an out and out condemnation of Joerger and what he's trying to do.
  22. Telemachus

    Telemachus Well-Known Member

    One of the things he said was that Giles has a bit of nasty to his game like a Sidney Moncrief that the Kings sorely need right now.
  23. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    All these positive comments about Giles is getting me way to excited about him.....feel like I'm going to be let down because Kangz.
  24. Sactown ExPat

    Sactown ExPat Active Member

    Not pulled after one missed rotation; more of an insight into how they try to balance the vet/young player mix on the floor at any given time in order to facilitate defensive communication and energy. He did not name any player—I referenced Skal as an illustrative example of a player who has struggled with rotations. Skal works very hard and is coming along. I have a lot of confidence that he will succeed.
  25. Iced Espresso

    Iced Espresso Well-Known Member

    Was at the Big Horn Game at Golden1 tonight. I bring this up because several players were watching the game tonight and were in house, and seemed to be having a decent time. So it looks like the players are getting along quite well.

    Just another reason to think that morale is good with most of the guys, and Joerger has spirits high.
  26. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    Trying to do and doing are two different things and the results still speak for themselves and I'm not talking wins and losses. It has not all been positive on or off the floor this season if it were there would be no reason for this discussion, which there is a difference between that and being being critical BTW. Out and out condemnation would be "Fire him now!" and I'm not there yet myself. I certainly do not agree with much of what he's done this year but I have also acknowledged some of what he's said does make sense. However there have been instances where he's gone back on what he's said himself. He said prior to the season he didn't want to do things like splitting those minutes down the middle, yet he's pretty much done just that up to this point. There is as much inconsistency in the supposed plan as there is on the floor.

    Another thing is we're still not sure how much is Joergers doing. Rumors suggest that in the past the Kings on court moves have been directed from higher up, so Joerger may be an innocent victim in all this, who knows. What I do know is that there needs to be a sharper focus on the floor just as much as in the FO so the team can move forward in a positive and beneficial way because that's what most NBA squads seem to do. The Kings always seem to be THE team everyone questions the motives of and year after year it seems more and more justified. If exploring the negatives and discussing the potential negatives compounded from them is condemnation then it will be very hard to express any sore of opinion on this subject.

    There is time to change IMO, and the Denver game was hopefully a step in the right direction because my whole point is the direction they are headed currently has very relevant and long lasting negatives associated. Maybe the transition is the in the works. The ships going off course a bit IMO, it might be time to refocus the direction a bit.
  27. Larry David

    Larry David Well-Known Member

    As long as his knees are better than Sidney Moncrief's, he might be a really good player. This issues is ... they might not be.
  28. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    This is the thing, we haven't heard anything about the players not liking each other, in fact quite the opposite. What we do know is some players are frustrated with their role and how the lineups have progressed and they are aware of the rotating lineups being atypical. When relating it back to similar situations in NBA history the outcome is fairly clear. It's a process of decay on and off the floor both in terms of asset value and player attitude. It might not happen to the greatest extreme with this team if they continue on the merry path they are on now, but a few months in we are seeing evidence of heading down that path nonetheless.
  29. VF21

    VF21 #KingsFansForever Staff Member Contributor

    Lots of conclusions being drawn from some rather vague comments made at various times. Sorry, STK, but your assessment is not borne out on a continuing basis. What I'm seeing and hearing is players who are putting things together and are working their posteriors off for a coach they all genuinely seem to like and respect. In addition, what I see is them buying into what he's selling.
  30. SacTownKid

    SacTownKid Well-Known Member

    My basis is that of a possibility to come and one that isn't supported by just vague comments. Hill's interview and Carters speaking of the lineups in that post game were not vague. They weren't quite damning at this point either. In fact I never said they were. I implied they were potentially a beginning to something more because in other scenarios they did indeed become more.

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