2018 draft fits with this team

Discussion in 'Personnel moves' started by sactowndog, Nov 13, 2017.

  1. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    But Fox & Cauley-Stein are not gambles? Fox is definitely a gamble at this point considering he's only in his rookie season and he hasn't exactly lit it up. Cauley-Stein has been inconsistent and below average for almost 3 seasons now with him being up for an extension after next season. I do not want to be in a position to gamble on the player we hope Cauley-Stein can become by giving him a hefty contract.

    And I loved Fox out of Kentucky and still love him now. Believe it or not, a rough rookie season is not something I overreact to as a lot of people here do so please don't try to put me in that group. I'm saying that there are players in this current draft class that I like better. Compare Fox out of Kentucky to the current draft class, and I have players that I would take over him. I would have taken Fultz over him last draft too but that doesn't mean I hate or have given up on Fox.
    206Fan likes this.
  2. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    I'd ship WCS out for a high pick (he strikes me as the kinda guy who's going to have a huge drop off after he signs his next contact). Fox? No way.
  3. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    No team is going to trade away their chance to get Doncic, Porter or Young for Fox. Doncic looks like one of the best European prospects ever, Porter is supposed to be a franchise type SF and Young is putting up historic numbers. Fox's stock has dropped since we've drafted him so I can't see another team passing up on a top 5 pick to get him. These prospects are better than Fox is.
    hrdboild likes this.
  4. hrdboild

    hrdboild Well-Known Member

    I was speaking mostly in general terms, not that any of the statements I made about fans giving up on players too soon necessarily apply to you. I just think it's a dangerous slippery slope to be on when you're thinking about swapping players out halfway through their rookie seasons And we've done exactly that as a franchise already. And we've traded a different player after just one season. And we've traded out coaches after one season. I've just gotten to the point where I feel like we're not going to solve anything until we can work with what we already have and develop some talent in house for a change. If we can make a trade for another top draft pick I'm all for that, I just don't think we should be looking at moving the kids to do it. Maybe Cauley-Stein because he's not really a kid anymore and I was never that high on him to begin with. But even there you'd better be getting someone with similar or better potential back. And I also think Trae Young's value is going to be so high by the time of the draft that you're not going to get him for Fox without including another top 5 pick somehow which should be a deal-breaker for us with the 2019 pick already gone. And the same probably goes for anyone in the top 5 this year.

    It's not a bad suggestion at all, I didn't mean to come out you like it was. I just feel strongly that this team needs continuity and patience more than anything else right now. The boat has been rocked a lot with roster changes just in the past few years and usually to negative effect. We have a ton of young talent already under contract, we can afford to be patient with this roster. Sometimes it takes 4 or 5 years for the light to come on and I don't want to be the team that gives up on a quality player like a Hassan Whiteside or Beno Udrih again because we're unrealistic in our expectations.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
    ESP47 likes this.
  5. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    I understand patience and am a big proponent of it. It's why you don't see me sharpening my pitch forks for some of our young players as some on this forum like to do. I'm not preaching selling them off for pennies on the dollar, but if I believe I can get a higher caliber prospect, I'm going to do it.
  6. Joshoua

    Joshoua Well-Known Member

    I think these are the only teams that would trade the number 1 pick and for what we have. And we’d need to have the 3rd or 4th pick

    Atlanta: 3rd pick/Hield. They’d draft Bagley to go with Collins and Hield with Schroeder

    Memphis: 3rd/Hield. They have major holes at SG and PF

    Phoenix: 3 or 4th/WCS. They don’t have a need for Doncic really trade down to get Young and WCS for center.

    Orlando: 3rd or 4th/WCS. I’m sure they’re salivating at the thought of Young they have 0 shooting and playmaking. Also WCS fits with Gordon and Isaac.

    I think the trades are worth it for Doncic who is a franchise 20-5-5 guy.

    Our roster trading 3rd and Hield


    Trading 3rd and WCS

    * I would throw the max at Nurik and for Portland’s hand they match they’d be forced to pay 3 guys 27 mill per year. If not I’d target Derrick Favors.
  7. Čarolija

    Čarolija Well-Known Member

    And prior to last year's draft people also wanted to trade up for Fox! C'mon!

    We don't even know what pick we will have. Good chance it would be 3-5 pick anyway!
  8. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    Isn’t trading up when you package your pick with another asset to obtain a higher pick? Because that’s not what I recommended.

    I recommended that if I could come away From this draft with two of Doncic, Young, & Porter while giving up Fox, I’m doing it. That doesn’t mean I don’t love Fox as a prospect. That just speaks to how much I like those guys more than Fox.
    kingsfan1984 likes this.
  9. sactowndog

    sactowndog Active Member

    Yeah that would be great but no ones giving up a top 5 pick for Fox especially with Young on the board. If the need a PG pick one that can already shoot and pass.
    206Fan and CelticsFan like this.
  10. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    Not if we’re drafting before them and take Young.
    kingsfan1984 likes this.
  11. Reverend

    Reverend Member

    What makes you think that Young is going to be further along than and a better fit with our core than Fox is at this point next year? Or 3 years from now, better yet. The franchise is preaching stability, you don't draft a kid and hype him up to be a special talent and the main piece that we have moving forward just to dump him and another asset for what appears to be a better fit at this point.
  12. Reverend

    Reverend Member

    Furthermore, look how long it's taken to develop some of the guys we've got now (and still most have not even scratched the surface of what they could be) you prepared to add another 2-3 years onto the rebuild to make things look cute on paper or does it make more sense to develop the guys we've got now & worry about satisfying the fit for when we're actually competing for something. Just me but I'd take the latter.
  13. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    What makes you think my stance has anything to do with being further along or a better fit with our core?

    It’s about improving the talent pool on our team. It’s about finding our franchise cornerstones. Thinking about fit with our current prospects is ridiculous at this point. What’s the saying? Counting your chickens before they hatch?

    Draft and acquire the best possible talents, develop them until you find some franchise players, and THEN try to fit a team around them. You DO NOT try to fit a team based on your young guys hypothetically panning out. That’s how bad teams stay bad.

    Fans want to act like we’re on this clock to become good because we don’t have our 2019 pick. Lack of patience will surely limit our teams potential. Continue to gather assets and develop those assets until you find a couple of stars. Until then, maintain cap flexibility, don’t hand out big contracts to mediocre young talent, and keep being in the business of asset collection. If your smart in the draft and who you target in trades, the process of finding your stars shouldn’t take long.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
    rosa u podne and kingsfan1984 like this.
  14. dude12

    dude12 Well-Known Member

    Before wanting to deal off Fox, take a look at Mike Conley's stats in his first year when he was 20. Very similar to what Fox is doing now. Many others are similar. Fox is going to be more than fine. I'd focus on who to take at this pick and hope that player does play at a high level to go with Fox.
    Čarolija likes this.
  15. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    Let me be clear. I’m not worried about Fox. I value him the same as when we drafted him. I know it takes awhile to adjust especially at the PG position.

    I’m essentially saying that if Fox played his college season this year and entered this draft, I would rather have Doncic, Young, & Porter over him. That’s not a knock on Fox, that doesn’t mean I hate him as a prospect, and that doesn’t mean I’m giving up on him. I just have more confidence in those players being great to elite players in the NBA.
    kingsfan1984 likes this.
  16. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    If the Kings are smart and play the young guys more so they can develop and tank at the same time, we can wind up with Fox AND any of those guys.

    It would be just a KANGZ move to trade Fox or Hield or WCS to get a player that they could have otherwise gotten anyway.
    Čarolija likes this.
  17. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    I don't think you understand what is being discussed.

    I'm not recommending to move Fox AND our pick in a deal to get one of those guys. That's a huge overpay. We obviously will have a chance at drafting Doncic, Young, and/or Porter with our pick (meaning Fox is on the team still). I'm saying that if I can draft one of those guys with our own pick (Doncic for example) and trade Fox for one of the remaining two prospects (Porter for example), I would.
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2018
  18. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    I gotcha. Sorry, I was mixing up another trade idea with yours from earlier in the thread.

    I personally don't think that Fox has the value that those guys have now. I think you could score the 10th pick for Fox at this point but I don't think you could get up into the top 5 with him.
  19. twslam07

    twslam07 Well-Known Member

    That very well might be the case. I'm probably not the only one who values those prospects over Fox.
    ESP47 likes this.
  20. gunks

    gunks Well-Known Member

    Making rash, short sighted, decisions based around a top prospect who draws comparisons to Steph Curry?

    Yeah, there is no way Vivek does that.
  21. Blob

    Blob Well-Known Member

    I don't know what you are doing at the urinal but I hope to never to meet you there! And Good Luck with your Lonzo Bust Love-Fest you are going to need it. I am not inclined to debate you any further on substance. You have a way to personalize things when I am interested in talking hoops and Kings and NBA. Your friend said paraphrasing "he had me on ignore and Thank God he did not read what I posted". That was rude and uncalled for. You are less interested in debating the merits of said players and more interested in veiled threats such as "Your leash to call people things on the order of "mental lightweight" has become very very short". Really? I was counterpunching his insult of me. I am NEVER intentionally rude to anyone. I have been a valuable contributor to this site for over two years. You are a nasty person and I have no further interest to interact with you. And it is only because I do not have the Ignore button next to your name that I do not click it.
  22. Telemachus

    Telemachus Well-Known Member

    If you want an interesting read, here is an article by Cole Zwicker about how he goes about analyzing players and what he has learned since he has been doing it.

    Latest piece up @TheStepien: draft reflections and lessons learned (takeaways, philosophy, etc.), with emphasis on application to the 2018 draft: https://t.co/9guPUXFU2E
    LPKingsFan likes this.
  23. LPKingsFan

    LPKingsFan Well-Known Member

    Great read (and I appreciate that it's a read, so many pieces like this are podcasts now). Thanks for sharing.
    Telemachus likes this.
  24. Folsomkingsfan

    Folsomkingsfan Active Member

    Definitely not. I love Fox and think he will be, at the very least, a solid NBA starter, but the guys at the top of this draft are just better prospects. There's no way to argue it. They all have higher ceilings than Fox and, unfortunately, Fox has a lower floor than they do. If you can somehow get Porter for Fox you have to do it.
    206Fan likes this.
  25. ESP47

    ESP47 Well-Known Member

    Just a completely hypothetical situation for the sake of discussion....

    Say we're a lock to draft Doncic and that's who Vlade is planning on drafting no matter what. Then a team comes along and offers us somewhere around #10 for Fox. Would you trade Fox so we wind up with Doncic and Miles or Mikal Bridges?

    We don't have to trade Hill so we could wind up with a Hill, Bogie, Doncic, Bridges, WCS lineup. That's a lot of ball handling, shooting and defense.

    Would you guys pull the trigger on that?
  26. The_Jamal

    The_Jamal Well-Known Member

    Absolutely not. That's a trade we'd regret. I'd only consider moving Fox if let us land 2 of Doncic/Porter/Ayton/Bagley. Even then, I don't think I do it as I think Fox's ceiling is incredibly high with his quickness and ability to break down a defense. Not many dudes in the NBA who can get in the paint and he's one of them.
    ESP47 and Čarolija like this.
  27. Joshoua

    Joshoua Well-Known Member

    I’d ask the gm to a fight if he proposed that
    KestrelKing and ESP47 like this.
  28. Čarolija

    Čarolija Well-Known Member

    I wouldn’t! Fox will be an all star. People are quick to jump on or off the bandwagon and the grass is not always greener on the other side.

    Fox is the type of player that will give you all-star level production for 10+ years. He would be the last player Kings would want to trade.

    The way I see it, SF is a big need for this team as is a quality big man who you could go to on the low block and that player also needs to be a hell of a rebounder. Now if all the hype around Giles is true (C-Webb 2.0) then the need for a big guy is not as huge.

    Dončić is a SF primarily but more of a point forward. The same way Dejan Bodiroga was a SF but he initiated the offence and was the guy on his teams in Europe.

    WCS shows flashes but his inconsistency infuriates me and I can’t trust him enough to be a consistent double double big that anchors the defense and protects the paint.

    I still like Dončić and Ayton the most for this team. I like Porter but the back surgery petrifies me. Back surgeries at that age never end well. Players are never the same after back surgeries.

    The question I have is, if Kings draft Ayton, would people be willing to trade WCS for a pick that gives them a change at a SF like Bridges or Porter if his stocks slides that much? I think I would even if it means losing something/someone else with WCS.
    ESP47 likes this.
  29. KingsSelecao

    KingsSelecao Active Member

    Man, I want Ayton! The man is a Tim Duncan and Olajuwan wrapped into a Beast! Get rid of whoever you have to. He is going to be in line as the next great Big! Shoots 3s, Rebounds, has a mid range, passes great, and the total package.
    CelticsFan likes this.
  30. 206Fan

    206Fan Well-Known Member

    Yes. It's not that I think Fox will end up as a bad player (he won't), but if we get the chance to draft Doncic, I'm not convinced that both could reach their potential in the same backcourt. I think that Doncic is a POINT-GUARD not a Point-Forward. He's a better playmaker than anyone the Kings have, so there's no reason to play him off-ball. I would be drafting Doncic to be our franchise player. Put players around him that fit him best. Don't think that's Fox.

    Here's what I would do with the Kings:
    PG: Doncic
    SG: Bogdanovic
    SF: Bridges
    PF: ?
    C: WCS

    If Doncic is your franchise player, you have to put a roster around him that suits his playing style. Both Bridges will do that.
    ESP47 likes this.

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